Thomas Swan has a PhD in experimental psychology. He specializes in the cognitive science of religion.
even though it is controversial to examine Jesus to Lucifer, there are a number of mythological and linguistic consistencies that deserve our consideration. As such, Christians and practitioners of alternative Judeo-Christian faiths should be warned that this article might also now not make for comfortable studying.
The beginning of the Lucifer delusionLucifer is usually described as a fallen angel. The concept of a "morning megastar" falling from heaven probably has its origins in the Babylonian myth of Etana. This ancient king strove to be higher than the supreme god, Anu, with the aid of riding on the wings of an eagle. besides the fact that children, he was full of fear and was compelled to come back to Earth.
Conversely, it will probably consult with Inanna's descent into the underwo rld. Like Lucifer, Inanna is linked to Venus in Babylonian mythology. certainly, many ancient-testomony myths originated in the Babylonian (Sumerian) faith, including Noah's Ark.
each Jesus and Lucifer are talked about in the Bible as the "morning celebrity."
Jason Jenkins, CC-by-SA-2.0 by the use of Wikimedia Commons; Canva
The Morning megastar: Lucifer or Jesus?in the long-established Hebrew old testomony, Lucifer is known as Helel, that means "shining one." in a similar fashion, an instantaneous translation of Lucifer from Latin into English gives us the phrase "mild-bearer" or "light-bringer." This suggestion of gentle-bringing is a reference to Lucifer's depiction as the planet Venus, which often aspects in the sky presently earlier than morning time. hence, Lucifer is also given the epithet "morning big name" to explain how he "brings the easy" of a new day.
So, as opposed to being a prince of darkness, Lucifer looks to have reliable origins. certainly, normal myths about Lucifer describe him as an angel who became forged out of heaven:
< p>"the way you have fallen from heaven, morning megastar, son of the first light! You have been solid right down to the earth, you who once laid low the countries!" —Isaiah 14:12it can be cited that the King James Bible replaces "morning famous person, son of the morning time" with "O Lucifer, son of the morning." despite the protests of some Biblical scholars, prior translations show the two descriptions to be interchangeable. Taken in context, the quoted passage compares the fall of Lucifer with the fate of a Babylonian king. a lot despised, Etana tried to ascend to heaven however become cast back all the way down to Earth.
Lucifer's celestial fame as a morning celebrity that brings the first light is obvious. Confusion arises when Jesus is described within the same manner:
"I, Jesus, have despatched my angel to offer you this testimony for the churches. i am the root and the Offspring of David, and the shiny Morning superstar." —Revelation 22:16
"may also this flame be discovered nevertheless burning via the Morning superstar: the one Morning celebrity who certainly not sets, Christ your Son, who, coming returned from dying's area, has shed his peaceful easy on humanity." —Easter Proclamation (Roman Missal)
Are the parallels between the descriptions of Lucifer an d Jesus in the Bible proof that they are two sides of the same coin, so to speak?
Gustave Doré, Public area by the use of Wikimedia Commons; Canva
both Figures' Comparative Mythologythe usage of the above rates, one may indicate that Lucifer and Jesus are the identical entity. a further connection may also be made if we accept as true with their comparative mythologies. As described earlier, Lucifer was thrown out of heaven:
"And the wonderful dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is known as the satan and devil, the deceiver of the complete world—he changed into thrown right down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." —Revelation 12:7
"I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven." —Luke 10:18
Christian way of life te lls us that Lucifer grew to be devil after his fall, although that connection is also reasonably shaky. nonetheless, Jesus additionally descended from heaven to walk the Earth:
"but when the time had totally come, God sent his Son, born of a girl, born beneath law, to redeem those below legislation, that we could get hold of the total rights of sons." —Galatians four:four
"I have come [as] gentle into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not stay in darkness." —John 12:forty six
therefore, satan is called "the God of this world" in 2 Corinthians four:4, which further blurs the line between these two beings.
Jesus and Lucifer both described as easy-centric supernatural beings that descended to the human aircraft of existence, and it be rather feasible that Lucifer's look additionally required him to be born of a human mother. although, if Jesus and Lucifer are the identical entity, then all that followed in the New testament may be the work of a deceiver.
were Jesus' beneficent, astonishing deeds designed to coax the hundreds into following him? at the very least, one might query even if a real god would flaunt his powers in such a manner.
it could observe that Christianity generally is a Luciferian cult. When due to the fact that the autumn of Rome, the darkish a long time, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the countless different evils that may also be attributed to its inception, the theory may additionally in reality appear much less a ways-fetched than the average Christian interpretation.
deciphering the Morning big name ReferencesChristian scholars have interpreted the Lucifer-Jesus connection in a lot of ways. a common rebuttal to the conflation of the two non secular figures invokes the following passage to declare that there is multiple morning superstar:
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Who laid the cornerstone thereof; when the morning stars sang collectively, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" —Job 38:6
despite the fact, this contradicts the quotations given past. "[T]he one" morning megastar is described as if there are not any others. furthermore, there is only one Venus, though when the planet overtakes Earth's orbit, it does start to seem at a special time in the nighttime. The Bible is not any stranger to contradiction, so we may additionally by no means know which interpretation is correct.
different scholars claim the Bible verse through which the morning famous person is forged from heaven (Isaiah 14, see above) isn't allegorical but is really relating to the king of Babylon. This introduces the query of why Hebrew authors would need to describe this king as a divine (celestial) being. Morning celebrity is more exactly attributed to an angel—now not a king they despised.
finally, there's the parable in which Jesus spent forty days fasting alone within the wilderness. he's tempted three times with the aid of satan, suggesting that they're two separate beings. although, wise men frequently wandered into the desert to discover their proper selves with the aid of overcoming inner demons. indeed, no person is recorded as having witnessed the assembly, so it be somewhat possible that satan symbolized a facet of Jesus that needed to be overcome or challenged one way or the other.
I f Jesus and Lucifer are one, does that mean that Jesus is the notable deceiver?
Phillip Medhurst, CC-by way of-SA-three.0 by the use of Wikimedia Commons; Canva
Lucifer as Jesus Christpossibly the most fulfilling trick the devil ever pulled changed into convincing the area he changed into God. indeed, what more suitable way to get revenge on a benevolent god than to discovered a faith that does incredible evil in his name? This is just not a shock to any person:
"And when the thousand years are ended, satan can be launched from his reformatory and may come out to deceive the countries that are on the 4 corners of the earth." —Revelation 20:7
"And no ask yoursel f, for even devil disguises himself as an angel of gentle." —Corinthians 11:14
Even the Bible foretold that satan would deceive the world by using masquerading as an angel of mild. indeed, we're additionally told that satan is a tempter, a trickster, and a broker in chicanery and illusion. Would he appear because the beast or as the reply to our prayers?
Jesus discovered a negative and squalid land and used miracles and charitable acts to turn into the people's messiah. He profited from the misery of the masses however did nothing to end their struggling on a everlasting basis. as a substitute, he claimed that our sins could be forgiven if we pledge our souls to him. Even murderers and rapists can ascend to paradise by promoting their souls to Christianity. Has the devil-worshiper metaphor long past a long way adequate yet?
For those with no predilection for Christian dogma, this interpretation may be simply as believable (or improbable) because the Christian edi tion. indeed, many trust the religion spawned by this legendary figure is the supply of a lot of evils. people who deny these evils use deception to stay away from their discovery, while heaven and hell are wielded to tempt or threaten folks that are too inclined or desperate to care. but then, it really is simply what Lucifer would have desired . . . isn't it?
meals for thought
What do you suppose? Are Jesus and Lucifer the identical being or not? feel free to share your strategies in the comments.
© 2013 Thomas Swan
Ernest Festus Awudey from Ho, Ghana. on August 06, 2020:
Thanks in your strategies. but there's completely no connection between devil and Jesus. they are two very different supernatural beings. Jesus is called God. devil is known as the devil. There are some mysteries that you simply can not understand by using human logic. they are spiritually figure. that you can comply with me and read on the spirit point of my article the Tripartite Nature of Man.
Tim Truzy from americaA. on can also 02, 2020:
it's essential to word: why would the king of angels (Jesus Christ) need to be prideful as Lucifer changed into and still is? Jesus Christ turned into and nevertheless is in can charge.
additionally, there is not any indication of psychological complications in the mission of Christ (yeah, until you count number that inclined to be crucified factor), so Jesus essentially actually failed to have a conversation along with his inner self ou t within the wasteland.
a further aspect: Lucifer would no longer shed anything else for anyone. Lucifer wants to be in cost so he doubtless won't have been born to the poorest class of people he might find. arrogance demands gadgets to support superiority.
although, your concept is enjoyable. Yet, Revelation indicate all angels shall bow before Him, together with Lucifer earlier than being forged into the lake of fire. once more, Jesus Christ did not have split character syndrome. it might be difficult to bow before yourself.
i do know: if Christ is Lucifer, then of route, He would have thousands of mirrors around Him all through that point. Christ wasn't vain.
terrific article. fascinating idea but totally questionable.
Elijah A Alexander Jr from Washington DC on June 10, 2018:
Thomas, my studies disagree together with your interpretation however not your conception.
The Morning star precedes the morning - and night at definite instances o f the yr - so the Genesis 1:14's "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" is telling us the solar, moon and stars displays (indications of) man's plight as seasons (four basic ethnics of Asians, Native americans, Africans and Europeans), days (11 hours of night, 1 hour transition, 11 hours of morning and 1 hour transitioning again to evening) and years (the mornings and evenings divided into four seasons every between the ethnics).
Use that to ebook our realizing this cloth world or civilization with Asians as Adam and Noah beginning civilization as spring, Native americans as Cain and Japheth for summer, Africans and Ham for fall and Europeans for iciness's destroyers of every thing apart from evergreen bushes or everlasting existence. The transition from the non secular civilization (Rev. 21) is depicted as 7 days of introduction, Adam to the flood is that this material civilization's dawn with the flood being spreading it the earth over and that same time representing the Asian and Native American civilizations ending with Abraham who started African (Ham) and European (Jacob who caused "the curse," a destruction to mother earth) civilizations.
Now that we're nearing the end of the terminating 80 years (parable of the fig tree) of the fig tree's with Psalms 90:10 giving us eighty years for a technology's passing that budded may also 1948, Lucifer created the instances of that budding, the "apartment of Rothschild" who instigated the return of the americans "who call themselves Jews but don't seem to be" to Israel's place of origin. That makes him, we will say, "the evening megastar" foretelling the sundown of this civilization and the birth of the department from the foundation of Jesse by way of David (Isaiah 11:1-12 & Revelation 5:5 & 5:12).
other than that revelation being neglected - average as a result of believin g Jesus could be the 2d Christ however is not - so if you can incorporate that revelation into your text we will agree utterly.
Peace.
CharlesDickens696 on January 10, 2018:
i'm the spawn of Lucifer. i used to be born within the darkness fear me. concern me ye of little religion of my vigor.
AF intellect on June 03, 2017:
source: http://www.realdevil.info/5-5.htm
Isaiah 14:12-14
"How artwork thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how paintings thou reduce all the way down to the floor, which didst weaken the international locations!"
"For thou hast spoke of in thine heart, i will be able to ascend into heaven, i'll exalt my throne above the stars of Yah: i'll sit additionally upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"
"i will ascend above the heights of the clou ds; I will be just like the most excessive."
See, Christians misread this and consider that Lucifer changed into the optimum angel who then grew to be prideful and rebelled, resulting in him being forged down. however I desire you to be aware something. Isaiah 14 isn't coping with celestial angels. it is a couple of prophecy related to the infants of Jacob.
Now go back to Isaiah 14 12, but examine unless verses 15 and sixteen. notice how in sixteen it says, "is that this the person that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;". Why would they be calling Lucifer a person if he is a spirit? Why didn't they say angel? as a result of Lucifer is definitely a name used for the ruler of Babylon, no longer the identify of a religious being.
The N.I.V. and different modern versions have set out the textual content of Isaiah chapters 13-23 as a sequence of "burdens" on quite a few countries, e.g. Babylon, Tyre, Egypt. Isaiah 14: 4, units the context of the ve rses we're given that: "Thou shalt take up this proverb (parable) towards the king of Babylon..." (Isaiah 14 four). The prophecy is hence concerning the human king of Babylon, who is described as "Lucifer". On his fall: "they that see thee shall...believe thee, announcing, is this the person that made the earth to tremble...?" (v. sixteen). for this reason Lucifer is evidently defined as a person. Lucifer become a human king , "All kings of the countries...shall talk and say unto thee, artwork thou also become weak as we? art thou develop into like unto us?" (vs. 9-10). Lucifer was for this reason a king like another king.
there may be a pretty good explanation why the King of Babylon is described as "the morning star", or Venus. The Babylonians believed that their king was the infant of their gods Bel and Ishtar, both of whom had been linked to the planets- they concept that their King became the planet Venus.
The passage about "Lucifer" is referencing a Babylonian fable. Heylel, the morning big name (Venus), tried to climb the walls of the northern metropolis of the gods to make himself king of heaven, handiest to be driven from the sky by the rising sun. In Isaiah 14:12-20 this mythis given a historical software. Isaiah is mocking the delusion, and saying that the King of Babylon become performing like Heylel in the fantasy- but can be thrown down no longer by using an additional planet, however via the Almighty himself.
I could go on about Ezekiel 28, but I found a piece of writing by using fellow Hubber Alexander Gibb who lined it. https://hubpages.com/faith-philosophy/Is-Jesus-...
Sharon on August 01, 2015:
Morning big name, crescent moon. Mohammad. Muslim religion.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on March 23, 2015:
thank you Jesus. I seem forward to our assembly. i will count to your powers of forgiveness to peer me into the light!
Jesus H. Christ on March 23, 2015:
howdy man!
here is one diabolical slur on ma Holy Moly identify. I made this world, dude, and don't you overlook it. To hell with your loopy Atheist articulations! in the future i'm a-comin returned an' me an' my bro' Luci gonna gitcha.
Hellfire, Dude! Hell-freakin'-hearth!
sincerely,
J.H.C.
Thomas Swan (author) from New Zealand on October 26, 2014:
thank you to the visitor commenters on your exciting words. i will be able to believe most of what you've got referred to.
Thanks for losing in Buildreps. I do like your interpretation as it suits with my belief that we may still movement far from religion and find what it skill to be human, how most useful to continue to exist in this world, and the way to look after each and every different in a way that merits us all. I see religious individuals propping up obscene, corporate systems and corrupt governments easily as a result of these techniques current them with empty platitudes about how magnificent their religion is.
movements communicate louder than phrases, and if Christians in reality believed in Jesus' works and teachings, they'd be outraged by way of the disgusting inequality, corruption, hatred, and struggle in our world - no longer calling for it themselves, or propping up techniques that perpetuate it. So yes, faith is keeping us again.
I in reality agree that mixing Jesus and the satan is a misinterpretation. For me, there is no correct interpretation for what's within the Bible. it's all misinterpreted. I wager i'm announcing that my rehashing of this fairy story is not any much less appropriate than the rehashing it truly is turn into authorised by way of a 3rd of the area as certainty.
Buildreps from Europe on October 22, 2014:
I had some modern insights recently . God (OT) and the devil are the identical - definitely. here is Yahweh or Jaldabaoth who changed into cast from heaven to beneath and called himself God and rules over the ignorant mankind, standing between man and their Soul.
Christ on his turn got here to earth to tell americans that God is internal them (their Soul). The 2nd coming of Christ is what most Christians take actually (oh, once again). what is intended with the 2d coming of Christ is that mankind discovers that their Christ is internal and that "god" isn't their supreme ruler but truly a misleading one standing between them and the highest dimension. Jesus become the one who brought humanity this message already 2000 years in the past.
Mixing Jesus with the satan is a misinterpretation in my humble opinion.
frank burns on June 01, 2014:
they are surely the same. There changed into no satan or Jesus in Judaism until they went to Persia. There they acquired Jesus/satan from Zoroastrianism. Any Je w knows this. satan is the notable Deceiver, and has deceived about 1/2 of the world.
raspat on can also 21, 2014:
I consider that every person has little reality but never unify that comment. here's mine short and simple. by way of words babilon potential confusion. this is why we must get out of her. The name Jesus is the mistake we make the devils has alternate the true name of God and having us praise an unknown God. For the be aware Jesus itself these not mean Yeshua. Yeshua in English is Joshua. So all of us are debating a subject matter this is limitless confusion. One propose an individual with the spirit is a son. God as the satan works through man. simple we're evil or good. The truth you nail in saying that Christ became fighting the internal demons in the temptation. He came to show us the way and all if need to see heaven have to fight our inner evil. We be aware of Christ had the decision to do respectable or evil and like Adam and eve at creation. same wit h Christ and us the temptation is there provided that we have that free option. We have to defeat this.
All who've his spirit will recognize the certainty. Congrats doh in your efforts to look backyard the box. For the world has misplaced it be knowledge. All is wrong no Christian religion is righteous. We have to appear in our self and like Christ exchange the evil to divinity. The passage where the Bible discuss with the morning stars bisnall telling us that we the place and at a degree must make one choice ether to remain evil or develop into sons of God hence divine. Bless.
Thomas Duncan on might also eleven, 2014:
neatly completed, Thomas Swan, unique ring. i am not an expert or neatly versed on the NT or OT. Jesus and Lucifer Christ seem to be two separate entities, as Jesus is meant to be the (first) organic child of God while Lucifer become the first Angel, whom rebelled towards God. I suggest, the notion is wonderful but preposterous.
Lucifer is a desirable figure, as well as devil and Beelzebub, whom I believe are three separate entities. Lucifer and satan are different, while satan and Sameal can be the identical, simply my idea. It was satan no longer Lucifer that turned into trying to inform Jesus to desert his crusade as a result of he turned into going to be crucified, from what I be aware.
it's difficult after centuries of interpretations, translations and alterations made to the fashioned story.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on April 24, 2014:
thank you additionally Sam Elder to your kind phrases. i am sorry I missed your remark before. sure, I found the comments rather interesting and pleasantly non-argumentative for probably the most part. i'm hoping they impressed you to write a hub of your own!
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on April 24, 2014:
Thanks for commenting Buildreps. additionally, thanks for guiding me to that historic writing. I actually have just search ed for and favorited the "emerald capsules of Thoth" to examine later. The Bible would be a an awful lot more exciting booklet if Jesus was really a "wolf in sheep's clothing", or the "dark brightness" from Thoth. perhaps it additionally brings new meaning to the phrase "the highway to hell is paved with good intentions". If Christianity have been a Luciferian cult, hell can be overflowing with Christians.
Buildreps from Europe on April 24, 2014:
Very exciting article, Thomas. I browsed trough your inspiring articles. You managed to join distinctive passages of the bible to 1 convincing statement. It made me believe of a passage of Thoth "..but weigh within the steadiness if his phrases be of easy. for many there are who stroll in dark brightness and yet don't seem to be the little ones of gentle".
SAM ELDER from home on November 07, 2013:
comment area is basically an concept for new article...
I enjoyed this one... i admire that you simply categorical straightly your aspect of view...
i admire your hub and i recognize your common sense and your believes...
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 08, 2013:
Thanks Wiccan. Yea, I heard about it around 10 years in the past now. It simply stuck with me all that point for some motive. it would be a good story if authentic. a great deal extra enjoyable than the Bible IMO! Christians understand a good bit about the Bible, however I've discovered they feel with certain absolute truths in place. this can lead to assumptions about what occurs to the Jews, notwithstanding their religion has distinctive ideas that might had been valuable up except Christianity took dangle. I should have clarified within the previous remark that Jews don't have a good deal thought of heaven both, though there are a few mentions of persevered existence after demise, and reuniting with relatives.
Mackenzie Sage Wright on October 08, 2013:
I've heard this argument earlier th an, but you argue it really well. actually myself I do not believe the Bible, or in Jesus or satan, but it surely serves as a different example that the Bible can guide any argument any individual wants.
I wasn't shocked to look the remark area exploding, lol. however as a scanned via it i was struck yet again through how little Christians definitely know about Judaism (ie, that satan isn't a fallen angel, there is not any hell, the messiah is supposed to be human, there's no such conception of salvation, etc.). I at all times find it humorous when Christians are trying to argue Christianity via Jewish beliefs, when they're getting the Jewish beliefs all incorrect.
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 03, 2013:
Uh, it's just not true although. Jews get to heaven with the aid of looking at Jewish legislation. This includes`mitzvot' which is to uphold the commandments via performing first rate deeds, acts of kindness, charity, and `tikkun olam' (repairing the realm). defined here: http://www.examiner.com/article/how-do-jews-get-to...
This theory of being "saved" has nothing to do with the historical testomony.
christiananrkist on October 03, 2013:
i'd study the old testomony again. they had been saved the same as we at the moment are. by means of God's grace. now not through works.
I basically will not have the rest to assert then if you do not consider devil is precise, and your only source comes from the bible. as a result of this with a purpose to make the argument of Jesus being devil, you have to almost decide upon and judge definite verses of the bible, then impose your personal context and meaning into them and making a fresh story which you wrote. This argument can certainly not work the use of the christian bible in its correct context, since it is terribly clear who is who.
Thomas Swan (author) from New Zealand on October 03, 2013:
I consider Jesus existed in historical past as a individual who grew to be the leader of a big cult that later grew to become a religion. I do not consider devil is true, but when Jesus became devil, then the brand new testament turned into written by means of people he deceived. My best source is the Bible.
"Christianity is not a saved with the aid of works faith. we're save by grace, through faith alone, so that no one can boast."
Christianity was shaped after Jesus died notwithstanding. so far as i do know, Yahweh rewards those that observe his commandments; people who do first rate in the world. even so, the Jews failed to have any definitive idea of heaven. The intention of Jesus/Lucifer's first rate deeds may additionally were to try to reconcile with God so he could turn into an angel again. it would explain the experiences he had within the desert... the inner co mbat between decent and evil inner him.
christiananrkist on October 03, 2013:
I see what you asserting now. Sorry, I overlooked that about Jesus deceiving people. I bet i am a bit at a loss for words even though about what you're asserting. just a number of questions for ya if you don't mind. from time to time it takes a while for me to be aware.do you suppose Jesus is true? Is satan true? Assuming devil is real, besides the bible, what legitimate counsel can we have about him? Are you basing skills of and information of satan you get from the bible, or from a different supply? If its from an additional supply, I can not really argue or guard any of this. If its from the bible, then every little thing the bible says have to be taken into consideration when making this argument work. mainly the arguments of Jesus and Lucifer being the identical and Jesus deceiving people because of it. If the tips is coming from the bible, it obviously states who Jesus is, that he did p redict his betrayal,changed into the messiah and different aspects I even have made. I actually do not perpetually look to the bible for solutions when objecting to atheist's arguments or discussing certain questions. during this case youngsters, I don't think we could make an argument for who Jesus become or who satan become devoid of turning to scripture. except of route like I referred to you produce other sources (which i want to peer) on devil, through which I cannot make arguments for, as a result of they might undoubtedly now not correlate with what the bible teaches and what i would agree with.
only a aspect word to your ultimate question. based on scripture you can't "purchase" your means into heaven no remember how many works. Christianity is not a saved by way of works religion. we're shop by way of grace, via faith alone, in order that nobody can boast.
Michele Travis from americaA. Ohio on October 03, 2013:
Sorry, may still have put it in my very own phrases. changed into being lazy. you did the correct element.
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 03, 2013:
Thanks Michelle for the remark. I eliminated handiest since it had a paragraph copied from wiki. If Jesus turned into sweating blood as a result of he became wired, it might have been as a result of he knew the Romans have been after him. I have no idea although. i might should comprehend the selected time it took place.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on October 03, 2013:
Christiananrkist:
"to imply Jesus wanted to change God or pretended to be God would be the equal as announcing God wanted to exchange or pretended to be God."
That requires the pre-perception that Jesus IS God even though. My starting aspect is that Jesus turned into deceiving americans into pondering he turned into God. it be the identical together with his name. If people who idea he became God referred to as him Jesus, this only means that they were deceived.
What I meant through "he grew to become their messiah" become "he grew to be typical and carried out notoreity". something his title may also had been, i'm talking in precise actual terms here. If he had stayed at domestic his whole lifestyles, he shouldn't have develop into the americans's messiah within the way I intended it.
the way I see it, Jesus and his entourage found meals and a spot to sleep in many of the places they visited. I think about his reputation as a prophet unfold simply as directly, prompting the decent will of the individuals he (may also have) duped. presumably they deploy camp just a few times on their travels, hunted wild animals, and sang around the campfire too. Nothing incorrect with living the nomad existence for slightly within the early days.
I don't suppose that quote proves he knew he can be crucified. consider of it this fashion... if Jesus' followers believed he became a unique prophet from God, and even the Son of God, then how would they reconcile this with the thought of him being accomplished like every other man? Of path they'll say it turned into all a part of his plan. additionally, he knew that the Romans had a warrant for his arrest long before they ultimately caught him.
even so, if we go again to a supernatural interpretation for a second. is rarely it feasible that Lucifer was performing these deeds in order to purchase his way back into heaven? If that had been the case, then demise was a part of his plan.
christiananrkist on October 02, 2013:
I truly wasn't declaring that your interpretation requires you to indicate that Jesus also desired to change God. What i used to be trying to aspect out is that Jesus and devil couldn't be the equal entity. i'm certain you already understand in accordance with John 1:1
within the beginning was the notice, and the be aware changed into with God, and the word become God.
to imply Jesus desired to change God or pre tended to be God would be the same as saying God wanted to change or pretended to be God.
Lucifer is an additional identify for satan. Jesus isn't. Why no longer? as a result of Jesus or Yeshua translates to the Lord saves. Lucifer is translated as the morning superstar. here's what I intended when i used to be saying names intended some thing to the Jewish. They did not simply select random name. they picked names that actually described someone. here is why you additionally see americans going by way of more than one identify in the bible as i cited previous.
To be fair I don't think most of your hub is speculation. you give scripture to lower back you your claims and make some respectable points to suppose about. i'm just giving my the reason why I disagree. I did suppose the virgin start argument is speculative though.
I remember i am being pedantic on Job. I express regret for that. I just believe the little issues depend so others can do their own research in the event that they desire.
2Corinthians11:14 truly says satan disguised/masquerades/transforms himself AS an angel of gentle. i can see where there would be confusion right here though, exceptionally with the radically change translation. I still hang to the concept that its speaking the devil will often use the certainty to unfold his deception. i will definitely do greater research on this and find different helping scripture.
Jesus failed to develop into messiah. He already turned into. the be aware messiah, the annointed one. the place do you discover that he lived fairly smartly? He was on a continuing shuttle. You see this in a couple of enviornment's the place it says he went to, arrived at, got here to. In Luke 9:fifty eight when speaking to a man that desired to follow him, he let the man recognize what it entailed to be a follower. "And Jesus observed to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.
i am no longer bound why you possibly can doubt Jesus knew the Romans would crucify him.
Matthew 26:39
And He went a bit past them, and fell on His face and prayed, asserting, "My Father, whether it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as i'll, but as you will."
Jesus really knew the horrors that awaited him. a further gospel says sweat ran down his head like drops of blood.
What did Jesus lose if he was Resurrected? this is like asking what did the blameless man who went to jail in the region of a family member lose because he become still launched later. Jesus took on the sins of the area. An ache none of us might imagine.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on October 02, 2013:
that's definitely viable Michele. I believe what the hub shows is there are lots of the way to interpret scripture. Whichever interpretation we come to be believing is usually that which we most want to trust. i am completely happy you f ound it unique.
Cheers MysticMoonlight! Oh i used to be a correct terror back then. I considered placing phosphorus into holy water so I might fake i used to be a demon being burned with the aid of it. i believed greater of it notwithstanding!
Thanks sparkster. Agreed, I feel the comments make these kind of hubs rewarding!
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 02, 2013:
Thanks for commenting Christiananrkist. I believe your interpretation of Isaiah 14:12. My interpretation is without difficulty that Lucifer is referred to as the morning celebrity, and here is the equal identify that's used for Jesus. As you rightly element out, this requires me to imply that Jesus also desired to change God. This could be why he pretended to be God within the flesh, and flaunted his powers in reputedly benevolent methods. youngsters, i'd contend that charity is not inherently first rate if it fails to elevate an individual from their squalor. provide a ravenous man a loaf of bread and he'll be starving again the following day. Anyway, that's a deeper philosophical dialogue.
I get the thought that Lucifer turns into satan after the fall from the Christian culture that Lucifer and devil are both "evil", and both supposedly fell from heaven. in the event that they're no longer the same being, i'd be stunned. on the other hand, I admitted that the connection is a shaky one. Names do imply plenty in scripture, however just study Revelation 12:7 once more… "And the awesome dragon changed into thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is known as the devil and devil". here we see 4 names being used for a similar entity. Why would Lucifer now not be yet another of his names? Why would Jesus no longer be?
You focus on speculation when it comes to divine births, and also you're appropriate. lots of the hub is speculation!
You're being a bit pedantic about Job. I did in fact quote Job 38:6 and 38:7 from the KJV. It's additionally clear from what I quoted that it is a query (therefore the query mark).
Revelation 20:7 is merely to show that the devil is a deceiver and trickster on a mass scale. That's the point i am making. also the devil doesn't need to "create" to trick men into growing a faith around him. I see the sentence of mine you picked up on notwithstanding, and that i have now edited that for that reason.
I disagree with you on Corinthians 11:12. It says satan can appear as an angel of light. It refers to satan's servants as being false apostles, now not satan himself. With Job 1:12, one illustration of devil backing down when God tells him to doesn't cease him from again and again deceiving individuals when God says nothing. My figuring out is that God makes it possible for satan to tempt and deceive people to be able to test them.
i'll trade tricks for miracles in the hub. Jesus did profit from misery, and he did nothing to completely aid the individuals in any physical approach. He became a messiah, and it looks to me like he lived pretty smartly. I doubt he knew that the Romans would crucify him, but if he rose from the useless, what did he lose?
Thanks again on your comment.
Marc Hubs from united kingdom on October 02, 2013:
wonderful hub... hilarious feedback!!
MysticMoonlight on October 02, 2013:
Thomas, I definitely LOL'd at this:
again when i used to be a mischievous 19 year old, I made up a dream with loads of symbolism to suggest Lucifer and Jesus were the identical, and sent it in an electronic mail to a Christian website to peer what they'd say. despite the fact, they did not prefer up on the connection and just gave me the commonplace "it might now not suggest what you feel" talk. Oh smartly :( hehe
I can't cease laughing! Your experience of humor is barely staggering!
Michele Travis from usaA. Ohio on October 02, 2013:
in all probability it is just like the Mornin g megastar is anything just like the Anti Christ.
And the brilliant and Morning celebrity IS Christ.
just questioning.
here's a fascinating hub, by the way.
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 02, 2013:
Thanks MysticMoonlight. Oh I suppose atheists have talked about a ways worse. i tried to stick to the bare records devoid of throwing any true walk in the park in the back of my interpretation of them. There have additionally been a good few individuals who've made the connection without too an awful lot hindrance. announcing it 400 years in the past would were courageous!
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 02, 2013:
it really is a captivating story A Thousand phrases, and i keep in mind that you do not trust both is actual. The confusion quote is additionally very important right here as you say.
I agree that your dream doubtless represented your intellect attempting to symbolically reconcile contradictions a nd hypocrisies in the religion.
Your dream journey brought up an odd memory of my own. again when i used to be a mischievous 19 year old, I made up a dream with lots of symbolism to indicate Lucifer and Jesus had been the equal, and despatched it in an email to a Christian web page to peer what they would say. youngsters, they did not decide upon up on the connection and simply gave me the standard "it might no longer suggest what you feel" talk. Oh smartly :( hehe
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on October 02, 2013:
Thanks for commenting Michelle Travis. There are somewhat a few mentions of Jesus being known as a morning big name, and not all of them check with him being a "shiny" morning megastar. or not it's tougher to find mentions of Lucifer. most likely if there have been extra, he would even be known as "bright" one of the crucial time. although, his identify essentially capability "light bringer" or "shining one" so I do not think there is plenty sho uld qualify his brightness.
christiananrkist on October 02, 2013:
hi Thomas. entertaining Hub. I think your flawed in a number of areas youngsters.
Lets take a more in-depth analyze isaiah 14:12. devil as well because the Babylonian king is pointed out because the morning big name. but a great deal within the identical way an individual may be called a Judas. This scripture is communicating that devil desired TO BE GOD. How can we recognize this. Lets take a look on the next few verses.
Isaiah 14:13-14
"however you said to your heart, 'i will be able to ascend to heaven; i will lift my throne above the stars of God, and i will take a seat on the mount of meeting within the recesses of the north. 'i will ascend above the heights of the clouds;i will make myself like the Most excessive.'
Its very clear when examine in its context, that Isaiah 14:12 is never equating devil with Jesus with the aid of regarding him because the morning star, ho wever speaking that he desired to take God's region. So I feel its safe to claim you cannot use this passage to assert devil and Jesus are the identical entities.
you're basically taking an incredible start for your comparative mythology part. no longer bound the place you get the thought in Christian tradition that Lucifer turns into satan after the fall. even though this had been backed up by using scripture, it wouldn't be counted. Names intended a whole lot to the Jewish neighborhood. Its now not not going he would had been referred as a unique name according to his actions. plenty like Naomi changing her name to Mara or Saul altering his name to Paul. You say its not unimaginable that Lucifers look required him to be born to a human mom. Your right. Its not not possible. however its additionally not communicated within the bible. God did although make angels seem in human form without being born to a human mom. This argument truly seems to need to invoke the power of spec ulation to make it work.
Now lets take a look at Job38:6 (the verse you really need to highlight by the way is 38:7). Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together
And the entire sons of God shouted for joy? This ends in a query. maybe we should look at more than one verse.
Job38:5-9
When the morning stars sang collectively and the entire sons of God shouted for pleasure? "Or who enclosed the sea with doors when, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; after I made a cloud its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band,
analyzing the text in its appropriate context (that being Hebrew poetry) the morning stars are the sons of God that are mentioned. These passages seem to observe a common parallel structure present in the encompassing text. for instance in verse 5
5 Who decided its measurements—without doubt you know!
Or who stretched the road upon it?
be aware right here the 2 strains communicate the equa l aspect. Then in verse 6.
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
same factor right here. and so on and so on, together with verse 7. be aware words are equivocal not univocal.
Lucifer as Jesus Christ:
right here you give a captivating illustration on how devil can be deceiving the area by means of quoting Revelation 20:7. be aware in this passage although here is speakme of the conclusion instances. It hasn't came about yet. besides the fact that children devil is a deceiver, you can't use this certain passage to make your element. You say satan is described as a tempter, a trickster, and a dealer in chicanery and phantasm. here is authentic. despite the fact, be aware there is nothing that suggest inventive power. In 2Corinthians 11:14 where devil disguises himself as an angel of easy, it's within the context of comparing satan to false apostles. How can we comprehend? once again lets examine more than 1 verse.
2Corinthians eleven:12-15
but what i am doing i will be able to proceed to do, in order that i could bring to a halt opportunity from those who need a chance to be considered simply as we're within the depend about which they are boasting. For such men are false apostles,deceitful people, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No ask yourself, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light. for this reason it is not extraordinary if his servants additionally conceal themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end might be in accordance with their deeds.
much like there are nevertheless false academics in the church these days even. This passage doesn't indicate that devil has creative vigour to actually change his form to seem as Jesus. The primary premise is that satan will commonly use the actuality with a purpose to deceive. You see this when he tempted Eve and again when he temps Jesus via quoting scripture. additionally notice in Job, devil needs God's permission to do whatever.
Job1:12
."Then the Lord noted to devil, "Behold, all that he has is on your vigour, most effective don't put forth your hand on him." So satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
When evaluating Jesus to devil you employ a slick use of phrases in the event you say he uses hints and charity. These don't seem to be hints. They had been miracles. if you're going to use the bible to make your case, you can't impose your personal use of words on it. Your say Jesus PROFITED from the misery of the hundreds. Doing issues that sooner or later lead as much as his torture and dying, whereas never having a correct region to lay his head is infrequently profiting.
MysticMoonlight on October 01, 2013:
unique read, Thomas. Very gutsy of you, i admire that. Most people are too scared to feel about this possibility and actually too scared to write about it so I commend you for your bravery writing on such a fragile subject!
so far as whe ther here's authentic or now not, I do not know. What i will say is that anything is possible. a good deal of what we feel we be aware of is barely that, what we consider we understand.
Michele Travis from u.s.A. Ohio on October 01, 2013:
A Thousand phrases, on occasion our desires are trying to tell us more about ourselves. I don't know, but some dreams are vivid. Your feedback are very entertaining.
A Thousand phrases on October 01, 2013:
Oh and side word: when I say "might be it turned into my unconscious mind opting for up on whatever thing," I do not mean that I really agree with that Jesus is the satan, because I do not trust that either one exists. I imply more that might be it changed into telling me some thing i thought became so form and full of mild wasn't what I notwithstanding it was. and that's the reason whatever thing i am coming to be aware further and further in my adventure of discovering myself.
A Thousand words on October 01, 2013:
You know, or not it's humorous since the thought crossed my mind simply the other day. i am a former believer, and considered one of my former pastors (who known as himself a prophet) used to always say that God isn't the author of confusion, and yet what has caused more confusion on this planet than the NT? individuals call Jesus the Prince of Peace, however the very Bible additionally states that Jesus will set daughter in opposition t father and son against mom (i'm paraphrasing), that if you don't hate your father and mom you can not serve him. That appears like a Prince of Division. what number of people have died for the sake of the unfold of this faith? Christians may not admit that it would've had been to this point spread if it hadn't been for the Crusades and hundreds of heaps if not greater americans being murdered if they did not develop into Christian!
and also you comprehend what? again when i was spiritual, i'll certainly not forget this. I went to a private Christian faculty in center-of-nowhere Georgia. I had a dream that i used to be being raped by way of demons in my dorm room. They failed to seem specially evil, though, they have been like these dark silhouettes, however you might tell they had been demons. i was so scared that I begun praying definitely hard that Jesus would come support me. and then they went away and he seems with this form smile. but then he turns into a demon himself, and i had not ever experienced such heartache and disappointment. and then I aroused from sleep. I in no way knew what it supposed. probably it turned into my unconscious mind choosing up on whatever thing? I have no idea. however this gave the look of THE ultimate hub to publish it in.
Michele Travis from u.s.A. Ohio on September 30, 2013:
hi Thomas Swan Lucifer was called "morning big name" Jesus is referred to as "The bright and Morning megastar" there's a change in meanings of these two names.
Its like when Lucifer is known as the prince of darkness and Jesus is the Prince of Peace.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on September 30, 2013:
enamateur, I agree. Christians tend to cost works which have "stood the test of time" in preference to works that are better or discarded as new facts arises. I feel this is one of the most main the explanation why they're disposed to reject science.
Thomas Swan (creator) from New Zealand on September 30, 2013:
Thanks Colleen!
Thomas Swan (author) from New Zealand on September 30, 2013:
Thanks Ranzi, Jesus definitely did preach some loving stuff. confidently it become actual and not for acquiring vigor.
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on September 30, 2013:
Thanks for commenting graceinus. Heh, well, I did warn you! If the concept described in the hub is relevant, my blasphemy is an act of God. you are right although, I failed to got down to offend individuals... I "may" care less however i'm glad I do not care less!
there isn't a should attack different commenters. I don't accept as true with a real, benevolent God would approve of that.
Thomas Swan (writer) from New Zealand on September 30, 2013:
Thanks Mel, or not it's first-class to peer somebody who can gracefully disagree. I wrote this as a result of I've seen how Christians like to reinterpret the Bible when it becomes politically mistaken. i thought i would reveal where interpretation can lead. I do not believe what I've said any longer than I agree with anything in the Bible. IMO, no-one fell from heaven!
graceinus from these of the Ekklesia on September 30, 2013:
This can be my ultimate comment during this Hub so i will be able to make here very clear. This Hub is full of blasphemy from birth to finish. And any so called christian who respects the statements and writes a remark showing his or her recognize for the statements contained within this Hub is a coward for no longer sta nding up for Jesus Christ.
cut The Bullshit from all over the place on September 30, 2013:
Grace, who are you to make use of God's moves to defend your own? And let's not overlook what Jesus christ noted earlier than he took his ultimate breath after facing humiliation, torture and betrayel, "father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing?" There is no need to have such a righhtous attitute just since you have studies the bible internal out which has left your intellect to perceive it in such a fanatical method. Do i admire that Jesus is being in comparison to the devil? of course now not! Do I agree, basically not. however I do admire that if there is a God then he has given us free will and a mind to feel the style we need. as long as Thomas is not insulting believers and calling them names. in the end you might be quite a rude and aggressive woman Grace and there is a noted quote from the bible which I feel is relavent for this put up. "Do no feed pe arls to swine." God bless you
Perry on September 30, 2013:
I do not trust the bible, it hasn't been up-to-date in some time.
graceinus from those of the Ekklesia on September 30, 2013:
Rani-This goes to display you how a good deal lack of awareness you've got regarding Jesus Christ. i can quote a couple of verses in the bible the place Jesus called individuals liers, vipers and hypocrites whereas defending our Father in heaven. and you'll guess Jesus changed into irritated. So much so He became turning over tables and whipping people. So earlier than showing your lack of knowledge again are trying gaining knowledge of the bible.
cut The Bullshit from in all places on September 29, 2013:
Graceinus you're one hypocrite who is not turning the different cheek. you are rude, aggressive and have so a good deal pent up anger that Jesus himself would be so disillusioned in you behaviour. You should be concerning the crusaders.
Colleen Swan from C ounty Durham on September 29, 2013:
A hell of an article; neatly accomplished.
cut The Bullshit from far and wide on September 29, 2013:
Im no longer a believer in a God, but if there's one man I dangle within the maximum regard no matter if he's fiction or actual and that is Jesus. The love he preached is overwhelming. besides the fact that children Thomas i'll need to give you a good deal credit on your analysis and thinking outside the field.
graceinus from these of the Ekklesia on September 29, 2013:
identical to I mentioned, a coward.
Mel Carriere from San Diego California on September 29, 2013:
i am not going to get right into a shouting fit on somebody else's hub. here's exactly why some individuals get grew to become off by means of Christianity, as a result of blind fanaticism. God bless you.
graceinus from those of the Ekklesia on September 29, 2013:
MEL- cARRIERE- reply my question.
Mel Carriere from San Diego Ca lifornia on September 29, 2013:
If the apostles had used your equal judgmental method Christianity would have on no account taken root. instead of damning others with abusive language why do not you offer them a blessing?
graceinus from these of the Ekklesia on September 29, 2013:
Mel Carriere-Who stated the rest about burning americans on the stake or an Inquisition. I talked about or not it's blasphemy and you're a coward. How do yo you get burning people on the stake and inquisition out of that. As a christian I even have each correct to communicate out towards blasphemy. You coward.
Mel Carriere from San Diego California on September 29, 2013:
Graceinus your whole intolerant angle does is add gas to the fire of non believers. may still we bring back the Inquisition and burn all non-Christians at the stake?
graceinus from those of the Ekklesia on September 29, 2013:
Thomas Swan- here's flat out blasphemy towards Jeusu Christ, which you n aturally might care less.
Mel Carriere- You recognize his articulated commentary. if you are a christian then you definitely are coward for not standing up for Jesus Christ..
Mel Carriere from San Diego California on September 29, 2013:
I predict you are going to get lots of very spirited remarks on this one. besides the fact that children I can't trust you, I appreciate your very neatly articulated remark.
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