TERRY GROSS, HOST:
here is sparkling AIR. i am Terry Gross. once we in the beginning scheduled the interview we're about to listen to, we did not understand how weirdly timely it could be. Let's face it - the pandemic has made loss of life a presence on a scale most of us are not used to. Your beliefs about what occurs after dying or if the rest occurs may shape the way you're coping with your fears and anxieties. within the new booklet, "Heaven And Hell: A history Of The Afterlife," my guest Bart Ehrman writes about the place the ideas of heaven and hell came from. He examines the Hebrew Bible, the new testomony, in addition to writings from the Greek and Roman era.
Ehrman is a amazing professor of religious stories on the university of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and is one of the usa's most generally read students of early Christianity and the brand new testomony. His books akin to "Misquoting Jesus" and "How Jesus grew to become God" problem loads of beliefs and common wisdom. As for Ehrman's beliefs, as a toddler, he changed into an altar boy in the Episcopal Church. At age 15, he grew to be a born-once more fundamentalist evangelical Christian. After attending the Moody Bible Institute, he studied at Princeton Theological Seminary, which brought him to texts and interpretations that led him to a extra liberal kind of Christianity. at last, he left the faith altogether.
Bart Ehrman, welcome back to fresh AIR. it is a pleasure to have you returned. How are you and your household?
BART EHRMAN: We're all neatly. And thanks for having me back.
GROSS: So is the pandemic making you consider in another way about your publication? Are you seeing your publication in a way that you just did not fairly if you were really writing it?
EHRMAN: i would say not so lots. I imply, my view is that, you understand, individuals have all the time been worried about death, about what happens to them once they die, and so it truly is why I took on this booklet within the first location. but the pandemic, for me, is with ease making it crystal clear why these are concerns for therefore many individuals. Most individuals, of route, are more worried in regards to the process of loss of life right now or getting in poor health or the economics of that. however there's nevertheless the difficulty of death, so or not it's simply easily develop into more stated.
GROSS: Is it fair to say you are an atheist now?
EHRMAN: it really is fair to say (laughter). I in fact accept as true with myself both an atheist and an agnostic because I - you know, I do not in reality comprehend if there's a superior being within the universe, however I do not believe there is. And so when it comes to what i do know, i am an agnostic. however when it comes to what I agree with, i'm an atheist.
GROSS: In a time like this, do you wish you might nonetheless accept as true with in a heaven that offers everlasting life, in a place where you can be united with family?
EHRMAN: Yeah, that might completely be respectable. it's not that I wish I believed it; I desire that it had been authentic. And as I say in my book, as we will likely get to, it could be actual that we are going to live after we die. but if we do, it'll be some thing pleasurable like that. it's now not going to be whatever lousy. So I - you recognize, it be now not that I wish I believed it so lots as I hope that it have been genuine.
GROSS: So what do you trust about death now, about what happens after you die?
EHRMAN: neatly, I - you recognize, I've examine demise and idea about loss of life and the afterlife for many, a long time now and what - you know, what philosophers say and theologians say and biblical students say and, you comprehend, what individuals often say. and i still feel that Socrates is the one who doubtless put it foremost. When he become on trial, on capital prices - so it become a demise sentence anticipating him - he was speakme along with his companions about what demise could be, and his view is that it be considered one of two things.
both we reside on and we see these we knew before and those we did not comprehend earlier than, and we spend all of our time being with them, which for him became absolute paradise as a result of Socrates liked nothing improved than conversing with americans, and so now he may speak with Homer and with all the greats of the Greek previous. in order that can be awesome. And if it be not that, he talked about it could be like a deep sleep. every person loves a deep, dreamless sleep. no person frets about it or gets upset by way of having it. And so it's the alternative. And so it be both a deep sleep, or it's a great result, and both way or not it's going to be high-quality. and that is the reason exactly what I believe.
GROSS: probably the most theses of your publication concerning the heritage of heaven and the way is that views of heaven and hell do not go again to the earliest ranges of Christianity, and they're not within the ancient testomony or in Jesus' teachings. they're not?
EHRMAN: (Laughter) i know, exactly. this is the big shock of the booklet, and it be the one component individuals doubtless wouldn't predict as a result of, you know, when i was becoming up, I just assumed. here is the view of Christianity. So this ought to be what Jesus taught. here is what the ancient testament taught. And truly, it be no longer correct. Our view that you die and your soul goes to heaven or hell isn't found anyplace in the historic testomony, and it be now not what Jesus preached. I must demonstrate that in my book, and that i lay it out and explain why it's completely now not the case that Jesus believed you died and your soul went to heaven or hell. Jesus had a very distinct figuring out that people today won't have.
GROSS: Are there issues within the Hebrew Bible that nonetheless assist the thought of heaven and hell as individuals came to have in mind it, issues so that you can extract from the ancient testomony that could now not literally mention heaven and hell however still aid the imaginative and prescient that emerged of it?
EHRMAN: I consider probably the most hardest things for people to get their minds around is that historical Israelites and then Jews and then Jesus himself and his followers have a extremely diverse understanding of what the connection between what we name body and soul. Our view is that we - you may have got two issues happening within the human elements. so you have your body, your physical being, and you have your soul, this invisible a part of you that lives on after dying, so that you can separate both and they can exist - the soul can exist outside of the physique. That isn't a view that became held with the aid of historic Israelites after which Jews, and it be now not even taught in the historic testament.
in the historic testament, what we might call the soul is really extra like what we would call the breath. When God creates Adam, he creates him out of earth, and then he breathes life into him. The life is in the breath. When the breath leaves the physique, the body now not lives, however the breath does not exist. We believe this. I suggest, if you die, you stop respiratory. Your breath does not go anyplace. And that became the ancient knowing, the historical Hebrew realizing of the soul, is that it did not go anyplace since it was with no trouble the component that made the body alive.
And so within the ancient testomony, there isn't any idea that your soul goes one vicinity or one more because the soul does not exist apart from the physique. Existence is wholly bodily. And that became the view that Jesus then picked up.
GROSS: Are there certain passages within the Hebrew Bible that aid the idea of an afterlife?
EHRMAN: Yeah, no, it's a fine question. And individuals often aspect to these passages within the book of Psalms that talk about Sheol, or Sheol. it's a note that receives mistranslated into English. from time to time Sheol is translated with the aid of the word hell, and it fully is not what americans believe of as hell. occasionally Sheol is mentioned via individuals today as a spot that is form of just like the Greek Hades, a place where all and sundry goes after they die, and that they aren't actually actual beings down there; they may be just kind of like souls, and they exist continuously there, and there's nothing to do, and they do - they are the entire equal. And so Sheol is every now and then portrayed like that. The Bible does focus on this place Sheol, notably in poetry, primarily in Psalms. And or not it's likely no longer a place that people go to, per se.
in case you definitely look at what the Psalms say about Sheol, they all the time equate it to the grave or to the pit. And so it looks that the ancient Israelites readily concept that if you happen to died, your body got buried someplace. It got put in a grave, or it got put in a pit, and that's what they called Sheol, is the location that your remains are. nevertheless it's not a place where you continue to exist afterwards.
simply concerning the best place within the Hebrew Bible the place you get an instance of somebody who has died who looks nevertheless to be alive afterwards is in this very abnormal and interesting passage within the booklet of 1 Samuel, the place the king, Saul, is determined for some guidance from somebody who is aware of, and so he calls - he has a necromancer, a woman, this girl of Endor, who calls up his former adviser Samuel from the grave. and she or he holds a sort of seance. And Samuel comes up and is basically upset that she's called him up from the grave, and he receives upset with Saul for doing this, and he predicts that Saul goes to die day after today in combat, which he does.
And so individuals frequently element to that as an instance that's - neatly, so individuals are alive after they're dead. And correct, it variety of seems like that in case you study it - for those who simply variety of effortlessly examine it. but when you truly study it cautiously, it doesn't say that. What it says is that Samuel got here up, however doesn't say the place he changed into, and it would not say if he became residing on the time. It feels like what - before he was raised up, it seems like he become effortlessly dead, and he was introduced back to existence temporarily, and he didn't appreciate that (laughter), and so he changed into upset.
GROSS: Why do not we take a short wreck right here? after which we are going to speak concerning the background of concepts of heaven and hell. if you're just joining us, my guest is Bart Ehrman. he is the writer of the brand new book "Heaven And Hell: A heritage Of The Afterlife." we will be right returned. this is fresh AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF STEFANO BOLLANI'S "ALOBAR E KUDRA")
GROSS: here is fresh AIR. Let's get again to my interview with Bart Ehrman, writer of the brand new e-book "Heaven And Hell: A history Of The Afterlife." he is a wonderful professor of non secular reviews on the college of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
so you write that beginning in the sixth century, Hebrew prophets started to proclaim, you recognize, that the nation had been destroyed and could be restored back to existence with the aid of God. it could be the resurrection of the nation. but then towards the end of the Hebrew Bible period, some Jewish thinkers got here to agree with that the future resurrection would observe not just to the nation however to people. So how does that shift take place?
EHRMAN: appropriate. So here is a very critical shift for realizing each the history of later Judaism and the heritage of later Christianity and the historical Jesus. About 200 earlier than Jesus was born, there become a shift in considering in historical Israel that grew to become - it grew to be a form of ideology, a kind of non secular concept that students these days call apocalypticism. It has to do with the apocalypse, the revelation of God. These americans began to think that the reason there's suffering on the planet isn't what the prophets had referred to, that it - as a result of individuals sin and God is punishing them; it's as a result of there are forces of evil in the world which are aligned against God and his individuals who're developing suffering. And so you get these demonic forces on the earth that are growing distress for all and sundry.
but they - these apocalyptic thinkers came to think that God turned into soon going to smash these forces of evil and do away with them altogether, and the area would again return to a utopia. it'd be like paradise. it would be like the backyard of Eden over again. The individuals who thought that maintained that this garden of Eden would come now not handiest to people who took place to be alive when it arrived; it changed into going to come to everyone. americans who had been on the side of God all the way through heritage can be individually raised from the dead and personally could be introduced into this new era, this new kingdom that God would rule right here on this planet.
GROSS: So this become all based on, like, the Messiah coming on the end of days, which some Jewish prophets envisioned can be quickly. When Jesus turned into alive, he thought the end of days would be soon. and of course, it saved not occurring.
EHRMAN: Yeah.
GROSS: and also you say that for the historic Jews, the indisputable fact that the Messiah failed to come, that turned into a turning point in beliefs about what occurs after death, too. There all started to be a belief that reward and punishment would be appropriate after dying, as hostile to after the Messiah comes.
EHRMAN: Yeah. That became a view a little bit in Judaism, and it grew to be a really reported view in Christianity. The - after Jesus. Jesus himself held to the apocalyptic view that I laid out. He taught - his main teaching is that the kingdom of God is coming. people nowadays, when they read the phrase kingdom of God, they suppose he is talking about heaven, the place that your soul goes to if you die. but Jesus is never talking about heaven as a result of he doesn't accept as true with - he is a Jew - he doesn't trust in the separation of soul and physique.
He does not consider the soul goes to reside on in heaven. He thinks that there is going to be a resurrection of the lifeless on the conclusion of time. God will spoil the forces of evil. he will raise the dead. and people who had been on God's aspect, specifically those that comply with Jesus' teachings, will enter the brand new kingdom right here on this planet. they will be actual. they'll be in bodies. and they're going to live right here on the earth, and here is where the paradise may be. And so Jesus taught that the kingdom of God, this new actual vicinity, changed into coming quickly, and those who didn't get into the kingdom were going to be annihilated.
What finally ends up going on is that, over time, this expectation that the dominion changed into coming quickly began to be puzzled since it was alleged to come soon and it failed to come soon, and it's still no longer coming, and when is it going to return? And individuals began pondering, well, you know, undoubtedly i'm going to get rewarded, you be aware of, not in some kingdom it really is going to come in just a few thousand years, however i'm going to get rewarded with the aid of God correct away. and they also ended up shifting the considering away from the conception that there'd be a kingdom right here on the earth that was soon to come to pondering that the dominion, truly, is up with God above in heaven. and so they began considering that it comes at death, and individuals begun assuming then that, in fact, your soul would reside on.
it be now not an accident that that got here into Christianity after the majority of individuals coming into the Christian church were raised in Greek circles rather than in Jewish circles as a result of in Jewish circles, there is not any separation of the soul and the physique. The soul did not exist one by one. but in Greek circles, going approach back to Plato and before him, that become fully the belief. The soul turned into immortal and would are living invariably in Greek considering. And so these people who transformed to Christianity had been principally Greek thinkers, they concept there was a soul that are living invariably. They developed the theory, then, that the soul lived continually with God when it be rewarded.
GROSS: so that you have been asserting there in reality is rarely an specific description of heaven and hell in the Hebrew Bible and even within the New testament, but that Paul is crucial in figuring out the heritage of heaven and hell. tell us about what Paul wrote.
EHRMAN: Paul is terribly essential for knowing the background of heaven and hell, as he is critical for figuring out most issues about early Christian thinking. Paul changed into no longer a follower of Jesus all the way through his lifetime, all through Jesus' lifetime. He wasn't one of the most disciples. He converted a number of years after Jesus' death. He - Paul changed into Jewish. He changed into raised Jewish. He wasn't raised in Israel; he become from outdoor of Israel. He turned into a Greek-talking Jew. but he was additionally, like Jesus, an apocalypticist who concept that at the end of the age, there can be a resurrection of the useless.
When he grew to become satisfied that Jesus become raised from the dead, he concept that the resurrection had began. And so he noted residing within the final days because he assumed that all and sundry else now was going to be raised to observe go well with. And so Paul concept he could be alive when the conclusion got here. For Paul, Jesus changed into going to come back lower back from heaven and bring in God's kingdom here on this planet, and individuals can be raised from the lifeless for glorious eternity. Paul, in his earliest letters, affirms that view of the impending resurrection. it be going to come back very quickly. And he entirely anticipated to be alive when it happened.
but then time dragged on, and a couple of a long time passed, and it did not arrive, and Paul began realizing that, truly, he could die earlier than it happens. And so in some of his later letters, he ponders the opportunity of death, and he wonders, smartly, what happens to me, then? If i am introduced into the presence of Christ at the resurrection, and, you comprehend, there's a niche between the time I die and - what happens to me right through that hole? And he started thinking that, absolutely, he's going to be in Christ's presence throughout that time.
And so he came up with the thought that he would have a short lived dwelling up with Christ in God's realm, in heaven, unless the conclusion came. And so this is what the later Paul has to say, and here's the beginning of the Christian theory of heaven and hell, that you should exist - notwithstanding your physical remains are dead, that you could exist in the presence of God in heaven. And as soon as Paul begun announcing that, his followers in fact latched onto it as a result of most of Paul's converts were from Greek circles. They have been gentiles. They weren't Jews. and they had been raised with the thought that your soul lives on after dying, and now they had a Christian model to put it on. They could say that, sure, your soul lives on, and so in case you die, your soul will go as much as God with heaven. And as time went on, that grew to become the emphasis in place of the theory of the resurrection with the dead.
GROSS: How does hell come into it?
EHRMAN: well, so considering that these individuals believed that the soul became immortal, so you might kill the body however you can not kill the soul, they idea, well, ok, so our soul will go to heaven to be with God, however then they realized, smartly, what in regards to the individuals who don't seem to be on the facet of God? neatly, if we're being rewarded, they'll be punished. and that's the way you birth getting the construction of the idea of hell, that or not it's a place where souls go to be punished in - because the contrary of the individuals who go to heaven to be rewarded. And in considering this, as it seems, the Christians are comfortably determining up on views that had been round among the many Greeks seeing that manner again for the time of Plato. Plato additionally has concepts about souls living on, both to be rewarded or punished continually. And Christians now, who have been exceptionally coming from Greek contexts, latched onto that thought with a Christ ian means of placing it.
GROSS: We ought to take a short smash right here. So let's try this, and then we'll talk some more. if you're simply becoming a member of us, my guest is Bart Ehrman, who's the writer of the new publication "Heaven And Hell: A background Of The Afterlife." he's a unique professor of religious reports on the institution of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. we'll be correct returned and talk extra about the background of heaven and hell. i'm Terry Gross, and here's sparkling AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MATT ULERY'S LOOM'S "OVER beneath other")
GROSS: here's fresh AIR. i'm Terry Gross, lower back with Bart Ehrman, writer of the brand new publication "Heaven And Hell: A history Of The Afterlife." he is a distinctive professor of non secular experiences on the college of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and is one in all the united states's most widely study students of early Christianity and the brand new testament. His previous books consist of "Misquoting Jesus" and "How Jesus grew to become God."
you may have also studied the Gnostic Gospels, that have been the these days found out gospels that in no way became a part of the canon. And these are more mystical texts. And probably the most noted of the Gnostic Gospels is Thomas. What become his imaginative and prescient of what occurs after demise?
EHRMAN: The a variety of agencies of Christians that people once in a while label gnostic would cover a big range of views. There are a lot of different religions that people have called gnostic. however one component that most of them have in regular is the theory that the physique isn't what matters. The physique isn't your buddy, and God did not create the body. The physique is a cosmic catastrophe. it be why we adventure so plenty ache and struggling as a result of we are living in these fabric shells. And in most gnostic religions, the theory is to get out of the shell, to get away the shell. so they have very much a differentiation between soul and body. It comes - Gnosticism, in many ways, comes out of Greek considering. So for them, there is no resurrection of the useless.
Gnostics disagreed with the Jewish theory that on the conclusion of time, God would elevate the useless physically. For Gnostics, the idea of being raised on your physique turned into repulsive. You suggest I've obtained to are living during this thing invariably? No. real life is in the soul. and so they denied the thought of the resurrection of the body. and what is enjoyable is Gnostics then claimed that Jesus additionally denied it. And so if you examine the Gnostic Gospels, you discover Jesus denouncing the thought that there is a resurrection of the body or that lifestyles may be lived without end in the body; it be strictly a depend of the soul.
And the different entertaining thing is that what the Gnostics did, by way of studying their ideas into Jesus, is additionally what the Orthodox Christians did, via inserting words in Jesus' lips that supported their concepts of heaven and hell. And so in our a considerable number of Gospels, you have got Jesus asserting all sorts of issues which are contradictory because distinctive americans are putting their personal concepts onto his lips.
GROSS: So your new booklet is in regards to the historical past of heaven and hell. Your coming near near booklet that you simply're engaged on now is going to be called "anticipating Armageddon." So how does the ebook of Revelation contribute to the imaginative and prescient of hell?
EHRMAN: well, yeah. You understand, a lot of people study Revelation as indicating that americans who're hostile to God - sinners might be forged into the lake of hearth always, and they will be - yeah, they will be floating in hearth for eternity. and they get that from a few passages in the e-book of Revelation. I ought to contend with this in my publication, where I try to reveal that, in fact, the publication of Revelation doesn't describe everlasting torment for sinners in the lake of fire. The - there are a few beings that go into the lake of fireplace, however they don't seem to be human beings; they are the antichrist, the beast and the satan, and they are supernatural forces that are tormented always.
The individuals, in the book of Revelation, human beings who are not on the side of God, are really destroyed. they are wiped out. here's the view it really is relatively consistent all the way through the new testomony, beginning with Jesus. Jesus believed that individuals could be destroyed when - on the conclusion of time, they'd be annihilated. So their punishment is that they would no longer get the dominion of God. That also is the view of Paul, that people could be destroyed if - when Jesus returns. it be not that they're going to live on always. And it be the view of Revelation. americans don't reside perpetually. if they don't seem to be introduced into the new Jerusalem, the metropolis of God that descends from heaven, they will be destroyed.
GROSS: So loads of the imagery of hell comes from the book of Revelation. it's a really specific, type of gruesome book, and that i wonder in case you've idea about why or not it's so image.
EHRMAN: Yeah, I've concept plenty about it. As you talked about, here is going to be what my next ebook is on, is ready how individuals have misinterpreted Revelation as a prediction of about what is going on to turn up in our future. And the graphic imagery within the book has truly contributed to all of these interpretations of Revelation. When past i used to be saying that Jesus become an apocalypticist who notion that the realm changed into going to return to an end, that God was going to wreck the forces of evil to herald a pretty good kingdom, that's exactly what the author of the booklet of Revelation thinks, that - and the publication is a description of how it's going to turn up.
The book is all in regards to the horrific destruction that is going to take region on this planet when God destroys everything this is hostile to him, before bringing in a very good kingdom. And so all the imagery of demise and destruction and ailment and conflict in the e-book of Revelation is used to demonstrate what terrible measures God has to take in order to spoil the forces of evil which are completely - have fully infiltrated the human world, earlier than he brings in a new world. This, although, isn't a e-book that describes what's going to take place to individuals once they die and go to heaven or hell; it's an outline of the ultimate judgment of God that somehow goes to be coming to Earth.
GROSS: you have mentioned how belief in the end times led in a circuitous way to perception in heaven and hell. I've heard a lot of joking currently about the way it's the end instances. You understand, California changed into on hearth. we've local weather trade and intense weather and earthquakes and volcanoes. And people are afraid that the planet itself is demise. we now have, you recognize, plastics in the ocean, ice caps which are melting. And now we've the pandemic. i ponder when you are listening to that sort of component, too.
EHRMAN: yes. Yeah, of route. I imply, you understand, a lot of people aren't joking. They take it very significantly. And it be - I want to say a couple of things about that. First is each era from the time of Jesus till nowadays has had Christians who insisted that the prophecies have been coming proper of their personal day. There have all the time been people who in reality picked a time when it be going to ensue. And there are two issues so that you can say about each one of these people over background who've picked a time. One is that they based their predictions on the e-book of Revelation. And secondly, each of them has been incontrovertibly wrong (laughter). so that may still give one pause. The issues that are occurring now are completely dreadful as, of course, they have been in 1916 to - 1914 to 1918 and as they have got been at other instances in heritage.
The ebook that i am writing that i am now calling "expecting Armageddon" is all about that. it's about how individuals have misused the booklet of Revelation to discuss how the end is coming and how it all the time seems like it's going to be coming in our personal time. And everyone thinks here's as bad as it will also be. And, you comprehend, this time we can also have it right. This sort of considering, even though, basically came to prominence at the end of the 19th and into the 20th century and hit huge prominence in 1945, after we in reality had the capability of destroying ourselves off the planet, which we still have, by the way. individuals are not speakme about nuclear weapons anymore, but they probably should still be as a result of that is an extra means this total thing could end.
however now the speak is more about climate exchange, appropriately. We completely may additionally do it to ourselves this time, nonetheless it might not be a prediction - a achievement of predictions of a prophecy; it's going to be because of human stupidity and refusal to act within the face of disaster.
GROSS: Let's take a smash here, and then we are going to speak some more. if you're simply becoming a member of us, my guest is religion scholar Bart Ehrman, who's the writer of the brand new ebook "Heaven And Hell: A historical past Of The Afterlife." we'll speak extra after a break. here is clean AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF JULIAN LAGE'S "SUPERA")
GROSS: here's fresh AIR. Let's get again to my interview with Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e-book "Heaven And Hell: A historical past Of The Afterlife." he's a unusual professor of religious studies on the school of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and the creator of many books about early Christianity.
So now we're faced with a pandemic. You could, I believe, use the notice plague, and the be aware, you understand, plague is in the Hebrew Bible. What have been the reasons within the Hebrew Bible for plagues?
EHRMAN: Yeah. The historic testament has a reasonably uniform and quite stark reason for why there are plagues or epidemics or pandemics. In well-nigh every case, we're informed that it be as a result of God is punishing people. americans have long gone against his will, and so he is - so he's bringing this disaster of epidemic upon them. You get that in the story of Moses within the publication of Exodus. You get it far and wide within the writings of the prophets in Amos and Isaiah, etc. This was the historic view that the intent God's people suffer is as a result of they've accomplished whatever thing wrong and he wants them to repent.
ultimately, Jewish thinkers begun to purpose that it didn't make a good deal sense as a result of there were instances when they would be doing what God advised them to do, or at least they'd be doing their stage best to do what God instructed them to do, and that they'd nevertheless be struggling these plagues. and that's after they developed the conception that, in reality, it's the forces of evil causing these mess ups. These continue to be two of the regular explanations these days.
There are americans today who're asserting that the reason of the pandemic is as a result of, you recognize, one sin or yet another. or not it's because of, you be aware of, these LGBTQ folk, you recognize, who're allowing promiscuous undertaking. God is punishing us. Or it's on account of, you know, one social sick or one other that God is punishing. and you've got that community. after which you have neighborhood who announcing that or not it's the devil doing it, that truly, or not it's the forces of evil. satan is working his means, and that it's as a result of we're at the conclusion of time, and he has to be launched right here at the conclusion of time before God will intervene. You get each of these explanations. Most americans doubtless don't subscribe to either one. Most americans just say, neatly, appear - you be aware of, it's a virus, and we better pay consideration to our scientists, which is, surely, the greater socially satisfying answer to the question.
GROSS: for those who had been 15 and have become a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, what would you've got believed in regards to the pandemic?
EHRMAN: it's a really decent query. I doubtless would have subscribed - i might have subscribed to either the view that God changed into upset and we needed to repent in order that he would relent, or that the satan - it turned into the devil doing it, and we needed to pray to God for mercy and for him to intervene on our behalf.
GROSS: And evaluate that to now.
EHRMAN: well, I believe those views - I mean, I recognize believers. I do not are trying to convert anyone. I do not are trying to trash any one's views. I try to respect everyone's views. I suppose that from time to time these very extremely spiritual views can be socially extremely bad as a result of if you suppose that the trigger is supernatural, then you definately do not need a great deal motivation to find a herbal solution. it's quite unhealthy to refuse the findings of science because of your very own beliefs. And we all just hope that it would not cause even further disaster.
GROSS: i wonder - in view that you will have modified from being a fundamentalist when you were on your teenagers and early 20s to now being an agnostic atheist, how have you dealt with the deaths or impending deaths through the years of family who do accept as true with and who - you recognize, who're Christians, who're Christian believers and do trust in heaven and hell? Like, i am bound you do not want to talk them out of their beliefs. however's not what you trust.
EHRMAN: Yeah.
GROSS: So how do you mediate between your beliefs and their beliefs in the way you consult with them about what is going to ensue and how you discuss with your self?
EHRMAN: once I speak with someone, certainly somebody who's close to me who is a firm believer in heaven and hell, I haven't any purpose to disabuse them of that, except they are using that perception to damage somebody or to advocate social guidelines that are unsafe to people. My dear elderly mother is a great Christian, and she or he believes that she can die and she or he will go to heaven and he or she will see her husband. And so i might be loopy to say, no, mother, in reality, yeah, you are now not going to look him (laughter). Of course, i'm not going to - I imply, there is no cause to shatter someone's beliefs, principally in the event that they simply are featuring them with hope.
My view is that all of us agree with very ordinary things, and many of the time we do not realize how atypical they're. And so I do not - or not it's not that I think that I believe handiest rational issues and all and sundry else is irrational. I actually have a unique set of beliefs. however my firmest perception is that something we believe, it is going to now not do hurt on this planet; it'll do respectable on earth. and of course, belief in heaven and hell has carried out a lot of good; or not it's also achieved loads of damage. It has terrified americans. There are people who're scared of dying as a result of they're afraid - they are literally afraid that they may be tormented for trillions of years, simply because the beginning. and that i believe it's a damaging belief.
And so i will under no circumstances try to speak somebody out of a perception in heaven, but I certainly will are attempting to talk americans out of a belief in hell because it's with ease wrong, and it's damaging. It does psychological harm. And when people carry their children on these things, it may well scar them for all times. And so I suppose that hell is some thing we should battle in opposition t; heaven, i am desirous about.
GROSS: Do you think that believing in hell scarred you?
EHRMAN: I do in many ways. I do not feel i'm scarred plenty longer, but I worked really, definitely difficult at it. i used to be terrified of going to hell. and i suppose that, you understand, psychologically, that become very dangerous. It made me a reasonably obnoxious fundamentalist Christian as a result of i thought that everyone else turned into going to move to hell, and so I had to go out of my approach to convert all of them (laughter). So I wasn't always a pleasing grownup to be around as a result of i was right and that they had been incorrect, and given that they were wrong, they were going to hell.
but the main issue is that I think that, really, it imposes emotional damage. When americans should find life enjoyable and hopeful and that they should be constructive to different people, they need to enjoy lifestyles, if all you are longing for is what's going to happen after you die, you can't definitely absolutely savor existence now because here's only a costume rehearsal. And so I don't try to talk individuals out of their view of heaven, but I suppose, basically, it's , you know, now not residing for what's going to happen after you die; it be dwelling for what you could do now.
GROSS: Let's take a damage right here, after which we'll speak some extra. if you are simply joining us, my guest is religion scholar Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new publication "Heaven And Hell: A historical past Of The Afterlife." we'll speak greater after a damage. here's fresh AIR.
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GROSS: this is fresh AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, writer of the brand new book "Heaven And Hell: A background Of The Afterlife." he is a wonderful professor of non secular stories at the college of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and the author of many books about early Christianity.
You be aware of, you write to your book that it's difficult so that you can conceive of God as being a sadist who would torture americans for eternity in hell.
EHRMAN: appropriate. So the bottom line of the publication is that the way you kind of trace the historical past of heaven and hell is that when individuals thought that everyone dies and it's the equal for every person continuously, they notion, well, it's now not reasonable. certainly, if there are gods on the earth or God on earth, there needs to be justice. So struggling now have to be rewarded later, and wicked conduct now need to be punished later. and they also got here up with the concept of an afterlife with rewards and punishments.
but at last, in Christianity, the concept became that for the reason that the soul is eternal, or not it's either rewarded endlessly or it be punished without end. but then people started considering, neatly, wait - is that fair? So, adequate, feel i'm just a daily old sinner, and that i die when i'm forty, and so might be I had about 25, might be even 30 years of now not being probably the most ideal person on the planet. i'm going to be tortured for 30 trillion years for those 30 years? and those 30 trillion years is simply the beginning? Is there basically a God who's going to permit that, not to mention trigger it? I imply, I simply - no (laughter).
And so I consider - I can't agree with so that you can truly say that God is barely and merciful and loving - besides the fact that he believes in judgment, he is not going to torture you for 30 trillion years and then retain going. It simply is rarely going to take place.
GROSS: i'm wondering what you consider about should you think about how the variety of individuals who are contracting COVID 19 and the way the variety of people who're death keeps becoming as we get closer to Passover and Easter, which might be very holy instances in Judaism and Christianity.
EHRMAN: I suppose that - i could talk from the Christian tradition, which I nonetheless cherish besides the fact that i am not a Christian, there are facets of Christianity that I resonate with as a result of they are so deeply ingrained in me. The Easter story is a story of hope that - in the Easter story, loss of life isn't the final observe, that there's anything that comes after death. there is hope in moments of comprehensive despair. There can also be existence after demise.
I do not take that literally anymore because I do not accept as true with there is. i am open to it, and i hope there is whatever thing after dying, and if it is, it'll be first rate. however I in my view consider, probably, this life is all there's. however I take the Easter story as a metaphor that, even within the darkest hours when there appears to be no hope and it feels like it's readily the end of all things, there definitely is a glimmer of hope and that something respectable can come out of whatever very dangerous. And so I in reality consider that, and i'll likely always agree with it.
GROSS: So what are you doing to reside secure? You are living in North Carolina. You train in the - on the tuition of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. i do know you are on sabbatical right now. We're recording this on Thursday. As we talk, is there any sort of guidance you're stepping into North Carolina about how to behave?
EHRMAN: neatly, the identical guidance all and sundry's getting who's being attentive to the appropriate news sources, which is that you just should self-isolate. You readily - it is going to be a disaster for some way - someplace, on some stage, for the economic climate, nevertheless it'll be a worse disaster if we are out in public as a result of we may be spreading the virus. We should self-isolate. And so i'm - my spouse and i were absolutely self-remoted for every week now, and we will dwell this way. And it be in fact the only technique to stop this issue from becoming. it's going to grow. it will be exponential. however it's the most effective method to cease it.
GROSS: So does that imply you are now not leaving the condominium at all?
EHRMAN: just to go out in my yard. i could occasionally walk across the block if nobody's around. however aside from that, no. We aren't the use of our automobiles. We're not going out. We're not doing the rest. We're staying - absolutely staying interior, and we're within the yard.
GROSS: neatly, Bart Ehrman, I desire you good fitness, and i thank you very plenty for speaking with us.
EHRMAN: well, thanks for having me. i hope you stay secure, too.
GROSS: thanks. Bart Ehrman's new ebook is called "Heaven And Hell: The history Of The Afterlife." And if you are thinking, but what about this passage in the historical testament or what about that passage in the New testament, let me simply say we simplest had time to touch on a number of of the aspects in Bart Ehrman's e-book, so if you want to understand greater about what he has to say concerning the heritage of the afterlife, I refer you to his publication. Bart Ehrman, thank you again.
EHRMAN: thank you for having me.
GROSS: Bart Ehrman is the writer of the brand new e-book "Heaven And Hell: A historical past Of The Afterlife."
the next day on fresh AIR, my visitor might be a doctor who has worked in struggle zones everywhere and is now scuffling with the pandemic, treating patients in his personal country, England. i'll talk with David Nott, who's been a trauma surgeon in battle zones, including Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen and Iraq, and trains doctors in battle and natural disaster zones. His new memoir is referred to as "conflict doctor: surgery On The front Line." i hope you are going to be part of us.
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GROSS: clean AIR's govt producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited through Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our affiliate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Roberta Shorrock directs the exhibit. i'm Terry Gross.
(SOUNDBITE OF PETROS KLAMPANIS' "convenient COME effortless GO") Transcript supplied via NPR, Copyright NPR.
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